The Cold War & The Kitchen Debates

Re the video of the debate in post #6, about 1:55 in, Nixon talks about meeting the farmers at the market. When he was young, he had to drive his family's truck in the early morning to LA to buy/pick up vegetables.

Richard Nixon - Wikipedia

Excerpt

At the start of his junior year in September 1928, Richard's parents permitted him to transfer to Whittier High School. At Whittier, Nixon suffered his first election defeat when he lost his bid for student body president. He often rose at 4 a.m., to drive the family truck into Los Angeles and purchase vegetables at the market. He then drove to the store to wash and display them before going to school. Harold had been diagnosed with tuberculosis the previous year; when their mother took him to Arizona in the hopes of improving his health, the demands on Richard increased, causing him to give up football. Nevertheless, Richard graduated from Whittier High third in his class of 207.[21

Link to an article on the Sino-Soviet split, in Wikipedia. Followed by an excerpt, and a photo of Mao and Khrushchev.

Sino-Soviet split - Wikipedia

Excerpt

In 1956, CPSU first secretary Nikita Khrushchev denounced Stalin and Stalinism in the speech On the Cult of Personality and its Consequences and began the de-Stalinization of the USSR. Mao and the Chinese leadership were appalled as the PRC and the USSR progressively diverged in their interpretations and applications of Leninist theory. By 1961, their intractable ideological differences provoked the PRC's formal denunciation of Soviet communism as the work of "revisionist traitors" in the USSR.[2] The PRC also declared the Soviet Union social imperialist.[4] For Eastern Bloc countries, the Sino-Soviet split was a question of who would lead the revolution for world communism, and to whom (China or the USSR) the vanguard parties of the world would turn for political advice, financial aid, and military assistance.[5] In that vein, both countries competed for the leadership of world communism through the vanguard parties native to the countries in their spheres of influence.[6]

In the Western world, the Sino-Soviet split transformed the bi-polar cold war into a tri-polar one, a geopolitical event as important as the erection of the Berlin Wall (1961), the defusing of the Cuban Missile Crisis (1962), and the end of the Vietnam War (1975), because the rivalry facilitated Mao's realization of Sino-American rapprochement with the US President Richard Nixon's visit to China in 1972. In the West, the policies of Triangular Diplomacy and linkage policy emerged.[7] Moreover, the occurrence of the Sino-Soviet split also voided the concept of Monolithic Communism, the Western perception that the communist nations were collectively a unitary actor in post–Second World War geopolitics, especially during the 1947–1950 period in the Vietnam War, when the US intervened to the First Indochina War (1946–1954).[8] However, the USSR and China continued to cooperate in Northern Vietnam into the 1970s, despite rivalry elsewhere.[9] Historically, the Sino-Soviet split facilitated the Marxist–Leninist Realpolitik with which Mao established the tri-polar geopolitics (PRC–USA–USSR) of the late-period Cold War (1956–1991) to create an anti-Soviet front, which Maoists connected to Three Worlds Theory.[4] According to Lüthi, there is "no documentary evidence that the Chinese or the Soviets thought about their relationship within a triangular framework during the period."[10] The period has been compared to nominally quad-polar geopolitics (PRC-UK-USA-USSR) until the Suez Crisis of 1956.



Mao Zedong (left) and Nikita Khrushchev (right) in Beijing, 1958

PeabodyKid said:

I am of the view that the collective Soviet leadership, including Brezhnev and Kosygin, removed Khrushchev because of conflict with the US that went badly, especially the Cuban Missile Crisis. As you say, @sparky, this was done peacefully - it could be, since there was no pretense of elections.

Of course, Kennedy could also be blamed for the unnecessary conflicts.

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In hindsight, Khruschev blew it even before there was any crisis. I mean, the Russians tried insanely hard to bridge the technological gap between theirs and the United States' delivery systems. This wasn't really necessary as the gap would have been bridged in a couple of years anyway. I guess it was mostly WW2 hangover and associated paranoia that sort of drove the Russians to find an armageddon level deterrence. Otherwise there's no reason not to wait a couple more years putting faith in Golf and Hotel class boats if things went south.

HardtackJuniper said:

the Russians tried insanely hard to bridge the technological gap between theirs and the United States' delivery systems

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not at all , the Soviets looking at the strategic air command very impressive fleet of strategic bombers and near impenetrable air defense simply went for missiles
way cheaper and impossible to counter ,
as for being behind in technology , the Soviets jet fighter program came as a shock in the sky of Korea until the F-86 Sabre came to establish parity
they were way in front in intercontinental missile while their space program left the US somewhat earthbound
they didn't try to bridge the technological gap , they raced ahead leaving the massive US air fleet somewhat obsolete like the Monitor Merimac duel made the wooden Navy only fit for making kindling

sparky said:

not at all , the Soviets looking at the strategic air command very impressive fleet of strategic bombers and near impenetrable air defense simply went for missiles
way cheaper and impossible to counter ,
as for being behind in technology , the Soviets jet fighter program came as a shock in the sky of Korea until the F-86 Sabre came to establish parity
they were way in front in intercontinental missile while their space program left the US somewhat earthbound
they didn't try to bridge the technological gap , they raced ahead leaving the massive US air fleet somewhat obsolete like the Monitor Merimac duel made the wooden Navy only fit for making kindling

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I am not sure how that contradicts what I said but anyway, they were severely lacking there also at that specific point of time. The Russians had only a handful of R7As. Even at the peak of the crisis they could only activate just one of these at Plesetsk to hit mainland US against what the US had arrayed in terms of ICBMs only, 170 Atlases. Yes, the damn thing that had made history for mankind by 'shturm'ing cosmos wasn't even available in numbers when the time came. Plus the US never needed to play gymnastics to hit USSR like the Russians were forced to do. Their only nuclear boomers were at that time a couple of Hotels, nowhere near a match for Polaris loaded George Washingtons and Ethan Allens. Even the no of MRBMs were heavily skewed towards the US but at least the Russians had some of those.

The so called missile gap never existed. Kennedy invented it and used it for electoral campaigns and that's it. Kruschev was clever enough to capitalize on that but was stupid enough to judge Kennedy by his rhetoric. In fact all those gaps like missile gap, cruiser gap, bomber gap were nonexistent fantasies. Russia wasn't a threat to the US in any sense of the word before at least mid '70s. In terms of WMD and all types of delivery systems, Russia was far behind the US.

And yes they played all kinds of antics and tried many a bunch of exotic stuff just to get a shot at mainland US. Placing Sandals in Cuba was only the first of them. Here's another to dodge the ABMs-


Btw I totally couldn't grasp how the Hampton Roads metaphor is relevant here.

the Hampton road metaphor is highlighting how one event raise the level of any confrontation to a higher one
a journalist of the Times of London wrote about the battle
yesterday the royal Navy had 150 warships , today... it has one ( HMS Warrior )

sparky said:

the Hampton road metaphor is highlighting how one event raise the level of any confrontation to a higher one
a journalist of the Times of London wrote about the battle
yesterday the royal Navy had 150 warships , today... it has one ( HMS Warrior )

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Yeah. And somewhat true in hindsight.

But sadly the art of influencing didn't mandatorily require firsthand experience before Youtube/Instagram. Otherwise said journalist would have had to take a trip on board the Monitor. Wouldn't that have been fun?

Actually the American civil war was followed with great interest in Europe
reporters and military attaches were all over the place
a Prussian officer wrote a very good account of the north superior railways procedures ,
a British military attaches , from the cold-stream guards was with Longstreet at Gettysburg
even before the internet news and report of momentous events were much in demand
especially when the cotton mills of Manchester were on half production rate

But we digress

It was not supposed to be a debate. Khrushev was just defensive because the Soviet Union was so far behind in consumer goods. This is a key issue, because the economic failings are the main reason most countries later moved away from Socialism and Communism.

sparky said:

During the Khrushchev era , the Soviet Union living conditions very largely improved
the main emphasis was on housing and consumer good
censorship was somewhat relaxed , the Gulags were emptied
in politics the Khrushchev line was ...no more purges , no more terror
the space program and the strong decolonization support provided some ideological credibility to the regime
the "ultimate downfall" of capitalism was presented as possible by peaceful means only .

Then the "deep state" got rid of Khrushchev
however it was not a total reversion , his line remained in effect , there was no purge and no shooting ,
he ended his life as a comfortable pensioner in Moscow

His mirror Nixon was also purged by his deep state , for the same reason , trying to keep the military industrial under control
both statesmen are in serious need of historical re-evaluation

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That's not exactly correct. I lived through that. During the Khrushchev era the housing began improving begin improving. Three generations still often shared one room with no running water but government began building crappy apartments. At the same time food shortages grew and productivity decline because of lack of enforcement (employment was secure, carrot nonexistent and stick gone). That how crises began. Still Soviet leaders believed they can keep tap on diffusing knowledge of how average American live to Soviet public and at the same time convince American that standing up to USSR isn't worth it. It didn't work and eventually lead to collups of whole system. Speaking of deep state, that's only form of government USSR had. Election was a show,

Chlodio said:

The early space and rocket programs. I think the Soviets did some impressive work in healthcare, too. I want to say for a time they were ahead of the west in cancer treatments. Can anyone confirm or deny that? The cultural exchanges weren't just about consumer goods. They also included science, the arts, sports, etc... That was another one - at this time the Soviets sent a dance troop to tour the US. There may have been some sports competitions, too, where the Soviets expected to do well compared to the west.

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r
Space program was popular. I remember when Gagarin flew whole school went berserk, there was so much excitement, not orchestrated by government. Speaking of health care, it was free and public health and immunisation programs were good. Speaking of medicine and tests, not so much. When my mother developed cancer I learned that there are only two ct scan in the country, both in Moscow, so leader of Ukraine should fly to Moscow to get a test. Physics and math were at top level, being needed for nuclear arms and BCM development. But live science and humanities were at very bad shape. Gymnastic and ballet were grate with children mercilessly trained from very early age.

Leftyhunter said:

Nixon was removed because of the Watergate scandal. Krueschev didn't have any major scandals to deal with but there were some major riots in the early 1960s in the Soviet Union not as bloody as US riots a few years later but still riots. Between the riots and the embaressment of the Cuban Missile Crises Krueschev was not a good place.
Leftyhunter

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There were no "scandals" in USSR, not the public knew about. Kruschev downfall was caused by his disastrous agricultural policies, destroying whatever was left of private sector in farming, and his relaxation of some oppressive policies which produced some dessent.

Yury said:

r
Space program was popular. I remember when Gagarin flew whole school went berserk, there was so much excitement, not orchestrated by government. Speaking of health care, it was free and public health and immunisation programs were good. Speaking of medicine and tests, not so much. When my mother developed cancer I learned that there are only two ct scan in the country, both in Moscow, so leader of Ukraine should fly to Moscow to get a test. Physics and math were at top level, being needed for nuclear arms and BCM development. But live science and humanities were at very bad shape. Gymnastic and ballet were grate with children mercilessly trained from very early age.

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Soviet education wasn't bad but having made the investment in education doesn't pay dividends if the best and brightest of those educated Soviet citizens immigrated abroad when the Soviet Union imploded which indeed they did.
Leftyhunter

Yury said:

r
Space program was popular. I remember when Gagarin flew whole school went berserk, there was so much excitement, not orchestrated by government. Speaking of health care, it was free and public health and immunisation programs were good. Speaking of medicine and tests, not so much. When my mother developed cancer I learned that there are only two ct scan in the country, both in Moscow, so leader of Ukraine should fly to Moscow to get a test. Physics and math were at top level, being needed for nuclear arms and BCM development. But live science and humanities were at very bad shape. Gymnastic and ballet were grate with children mercilessly trained from very early age.

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Israel's former Soviet immigrants transform adopted country
Here's where more then a few well educated former Soviet citizens ended up and US and South Korean hi tech companies all of a sudden set up research centers in the same place maybe not a coincidence.
If the Jews and part Jews had stayed in the post 1991 Russian Federation maybe the Russian economy would of benefitted greatly in terms of hi tech exports creating high paying jobs in the Russian Federation. Instead all the good work done by the communist era Soviet educational system benefitted not Soviet Union so much and not post Soviet Russia but Israel.
Leftyhunter

Yury said:

That's not exactly correct. I lived through that. During the Khrushchev era the housing began improving begin improving. Three generations still often shared one room with no running water but government began building crappy apartments. At the same time food shortages grew and productivity decline because of lack of enforcement (employment was secure, carrot nonexistent and stick gone). That how crises began. Still Soviet leaders believed they can keep tap on diffusing knowledge of how average American live to Soviet public and at the same time convince American that standing up to USSR isn't worth it. It didn't work and eventually lead to collups of whole system. Speaking of deep state, that's only form of government USSR had. Election was a show,

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Did Russians save Israel?
Did Mother Russia save Israel by giving Israel its best and brightest? It depends who you ask as the article does but it seems clear that Hi tech companies in Israel, Western Europe and the US benefitted from Jewish immigration from Russia. Also Samsung didn't invest in a research center in Israel out of a sense of charity.
The iorny is yes the Soviet's had a good educational system in science and math but who exactly benefitted?
Leftyhunter

Yury said:

r
Space program was popular. I remember when Gagarin flew whole school went berserk, there was so much excitement, not orchestrated by government. Speaking of health care, it was free and public health and immunisation programs were good. Speaking of medicine and tests, not so much. When my mother developed cancer I learned that there are only two ct scan in the country, both in Moscow, so leader of Ukraine should fly to Moscow to get a test. Physics and math were at top level, being needed for nuclear arms and BCM development. But live science and humanities were at very bad shape. Gymnastic and ballet were grate with children mercilessly trained from very early age.

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The Secret of Korean Success: State Investment and Growth of Giant Conglomerates
South Korea very much benefited from Russian immigration to Israel by investing in research and development in Israel at least as early as 1998 per a goverment agreement between South Korea and Israel. Imagine if the South Korean private sector would of invested in Russia post Soviet break up?
Leftyhunter

Leftyhunter said:

Israel's former Soviet immigrants transform adopted country
Here's where more then a few well educated former Soviet citizens ended up and US and South Korean hi tech companies all of a sudden set up research centers in the same place maybe not a coincidence.
If the Jews and part Jews had stayed in the post 1991 Russian Federation maybe the Russian economy would of benefitted greatly in terms of hi tech exports creating high paying jobs in the Russian Federation. Instead all the good work done by the communist era Soviet educational system benefitted not Soviet Union so much and not post Soviet Russia but Israel.
Leftyhunter

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the problem of Russian economy wasn't a lack of educated people but the lack of incentives for new development. The directives for computerisation coming from the top were ignored by middle management which was comfortable with things as they were. If you don't have competition why bother? That's why Soviets were on par with US in weapons and space where competition between companies virtually didn't exist.