The Hyksos -- historical reality or myth?

Ring of Power is pseudo-historical claptrap. Good conspiratainment is all.

barlier said:

As the name of Heinsohn was mentionned on another thread, I just remember that his paper regarding Hyksos is on my PC. I do not share his view as you can guess, however you may find some valuable informations for you to make your own opinion

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It's always good to dispose of more information. Thanks for your post.
The Hyksos certainly belong to the blurred chapters of History.

corrocamino said:

In the Ozarks, there are still many Hyks.

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Do you mean sôs’ (shepherds) ?

Flavius Joseph, Against apion, I 14 :
This whole nation was styled Hycsos, that is, Shepherd-kings: for the first syllable Hyc, according to the sacred dialect, denotes a king, as is Sos a shepherd; but this according to the ordinary dialect; and of these is compounded Hycsos: but some say that these people were Arabians.

Has one can see, "Hyksos" started poorly.

Why would they be a myth? you think Egyptians were kidding?

Satuf said:

Why would they be a myth? you think Egyptians were kidding?

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They could be simply a literary motif, an anthropomorphization of troubled times in Egyptian society.

Satuf said:

Why would they be a myth? you think Egyptians were kidding?

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Which Egyptians do you have in mind ?

barlier said:

Which Egyptians do you have in mind ?

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The afro ones? I guess?

Satuf said:

The afro ones? I guess?

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AFAIK the kings of 25th Dyn (Kush), made no comment on the XV dyn. period. Could you come with facts please. The word Hyksos is unknown in Egyptian texts.

barlier said:

In the Speos Artemidos, Queen Hatshepsut wrote she expulsed the Asians who ignored Ra.

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If forgot to specify that in the same text (See BAR II, 303 http://www.etana.org/abzu/coretext.pl?RC=14897) Hatshepsut wrote : "foreigners* were in the midst of them." IMO "Asians" is here an insult toward Egyptians, who cannot possibly be foreigners.

*......ed translated Smaw by Barbarians, Faulkner (CDME p.266) used Foreigners and travellers.

okamido said:

what of the supposed Hyksos summer capital at Avaris, and the names of their kings found there?

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AFAIK Avaris in the Delta was the all seasons capital. You have listed 4 of the 6 the kings of the XVe dyn (the number varies from one egyptologist to the next). Their official title was heqa khasout (ie. ruler over hilled countries)which is also know as Hyksos. During the SIP in Egypt, all sovereigns (Kush, Thebes) were an heqa. As far as Egyptiens of the NK and the TIP are concerned, they never called a group of people : Hyksos.

okamido said:

How much is known about them, and is it disputed as to whether or not they were Hyksos?

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Very little. About the dispute see post #19 but above all start with #1 (Look in particular to #14 and #32 which are in relation with a text from queen Hatshepsut).

barlier said:

AFAIK Avaris in the Delta was the all seasons capital. You have listed 4 of the 6 the kings of the XVe dyn (the number varies from one egyptologist to the next). Their official title was heqa khasout (ie. ruler over hilled countries)which is also know as Hyksos. During the SIP in Egypt, all sovereigns (Kush, Thebes) were an heqa. As far as Egyptiens of the NK and the TIP are concerned, they never called a group of people : Hyksos.

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I realize Barlier is no longer part of this group, but some of the points raised in this thread may be significant.

True, the term "Hyksos" is not used in Egyptian texts. These kings did not include Heqa-Khaswt in their titulary, neither did contemporary Egyptian pharaohs refer to them by that name.
We have Josephus/Manetho to thank for the erroneous assumption that the term Hyksos refers to an entire people. It did not, and it is totally false. However, for our use it is a very convenient term to use.

The title Heqa-Khaswt does appear on several scarabs of these 'foreign' kings, but what does this term really mean?

If I assume the title "King of.......", you can rest assured I want you to know what I am king of, who am I ruler over.
"Ruler of Foreign Countries" tells the reader nothing, as a title it is next to useless, except that it informs the reader that I am a Ruler. But what am I ruler of; Canaan, Naharyn, Ashkelon? - why not tell the reader where I am ruler of?

If I am just the ruler of some unnamed expanse of wilderness, way over the horizon, then where is the prestige in saying that?
And, why do several kings all make the same claim?

I think we have missed the true meaning of this term, Heqa-Khaswt.

The "tripple-hill" determinative certainly reads "Khaswt", and depending on the context can mean; land or country, but it does not mean "foreign".
The determinative for "foreign" is the "throwstick", and no "throwstick" is used in this title.

There are many examples of the "tripple-hill" determinative used for lands within Egypt, typically lands, perhaps suburbs, of great cities. These lands are widely known, and obviously they are not foreign - and, no "throwstick" is used in those terms either.

So, the "tripple-hill" determinative (Khaswt), means either 'land' or 'country', but does not automatically assume a meaning of "foreign", unless the "throwstick" is used.

This being the case, the title these 'Hyksos' used merely advise that they are Rulers of Lands, but which lands?

Interestingly, Apopi, the ruler of Avaris, does not use the term, Heqa-Khaswt. Yet we commonly assume he was a 'Hyksos' king.
That said, he does adopt a similar title - Heqa-Het'waret. Which some of you may recognise as meaning, "Ruler of Avaris", which he is known to have been.

Scholars have known this for a long time, yet they do not seem to have recognised that if "Het'waret" refers to a defined place, then possibly "Khaswt" also refers to a definite place.
If that is true then the title Heqa-Khaswt must identify a specific place which may have been lost, or gone through a name-change, down the centuries.

Was there a place in Egypt called Khaswt?

Yes, this was the ancient name for Xois. The name of the 6th Nome of Lower Egypt, and its capital city was at one time Khaset/Khaswt.

Heqa-Khaswt must mean Ruler of Khaswt, the 6th Nome of Lower Egypt.

They are foreigners of egypt from west asia and also the libyans I think. They are not native egyptian
The nubians helped kicked out libyans and the hyskos before the assyrians conquered egypt for good

Mirage said:

They are foreigners of egypt from west asia and also the libyans I think. They are not native egyptian
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They were foreigners in the sense that they were Asiatics, but as they had been settled in the Delta for generations, possibly centuries, then those born in Egypt would view themselves as Egyptian. Even though they practiced distinctly Asiatic traditions.

The point of the previous post is to show that the "Khaswt" in Heqa-Khaswt, identified a place - later known as Xois. It didn't mean "foreign countries".
The tripple-hill hieroglyph can be read as a logogram or an ideogram.

There is a parallel between Hyksos and the Sealand dynasty of Babylon (1700–1460 BCE), It is possible that both of these places were overrun by the same people?

Sealand known as ŠEŠ-KU . KU is γῆ "Land"

KU-ŠEŠ - UK-ŠEŠ ( Hyk-sos)

ŠEŠ - Shasu (š3sw)