East Asian genetic relationships

Zoopiter · Jul 20, 2012

1991sudarshan said:
The problem is only the Chinese Historical says that the language of Goguryo and other Korean languages differ significantly from the language of people in Manchuria ex Mohe language. The Koreans , the main land chinese and the Japanese sans Hokkaido and Okiwana and Taiwanese are sinodont mongoloid. So there must be a connection point between the Koreans and the manchurian.

If Chinese historical alone is not enough , then from historical perspective,then there really isn't any evidence that show Korean and Manchu are related either. There's no historical text that show Korean and Manchu are related but there historical text that show they are not related. But then again, if we use all human out of Africa, everyone pretty much relate with each other.
Judging from what you say, everyone from your list there from Han Chinese, Japanese, Korean,Manchu all have connection point as they are all Sinodont mongoloid but the connection point is too general and vague as it can range from out of Africa period to any period of time.

Cerberus · Jul 20, 2012

Language =/= genetics =/= ethnicity.

Mandschure · Jul 20, 2012

Zoopiter said:
If Chinese historical alone is not enough , then from historical perspective,then there really isn't any evidence that show Korean and Manchu are related either. There's no historical text that show Korean and Manchu are related but there historical text that show they are not related. But then again, if we use all human out of Africa, everyone pretty much relate with each other.
Judging from what you say, everyone from your list there from Han Chinese, Japanese, Korean,Manchu all have connection point as they are all Sinodont mongoloid but the connection point is too general and vague as it can range from out of Africa period to any period of time.

There is genetic proof to show that the Koreans and Manchurians are related.

From what I have read, the Jurchens originated in northeastern Korea before expanding towards Manchuria. The Jurchen dynasty (Jin, &#37329

translates to "Kim" in Korean.

Again many Korean nationalists will take this too far, but there was a relationship between the Jurchens and the Koreans.

Zoopiter · Jul 20, 2012

Mandschure said:
There is genetic proof to show that the Koreans and Manchurians are related.

From what I have read, the Jurchens originated in northeastern Korea before expanding towards Manchuria. The Jurchen dynasty (Jin, &#37329 translates to "Kim" in Korean.

Again many Korean nationalists will take this too far, but there was a relationship between the Jurchens and the Koreans.

Just for the record, I'm arguing from historical perspective, not from genetic because genetic=/=ethnicity.

By the way, the Manchu are not the same tribe as Jin royal family. The founder of Jin dynasty,Emperor Taizu of Jin of Wanyan is from Korea but not the Manchu or the entire native population of Manchuria and Jin dynasty. Borjigin Ayurbawada from Chinese History Forum already explain that in Chinese History Forum. The Aisin Gioro, Manchu royal family are aware they are not the same tribe as Wanyan of Jin.

On a more serious note. Altaicmania needs to get intoned with academic scholarship. Its a common knowledge now that the Qing is not descended from the Jin. And despite Altaicmania's quotations of "Qing ding Man Zhou Yuan Liu Kao"滿洲源流考, its apparent that he never actually read it. Because if so he would have picked up from the second page of that text that the Manchus themselves were aware that they were not of the same family as the Wan Yan clan of the Jin. To quote the passage from the text: "Although our dynasty and the Great Jin are both at the east, we are not of the same tribe...The Wan Yan family are all subject of our dynasty at the present."
本朝者謂雖與大金俱在東方而非其同部則所見殊小我朝得姓曰愛新覺羅氏國語謂金曰愛新可為金源同派之証盖我朝在大金時未嘗非完顔氏之服屬猶之完顔氏在今日皆為我朝之臣

The Qing's ancestors were the black water Mohe(which was never subjugated by Koguryo), a different group of Jurchens than the Jin. The claim made by Nurhachi as descended from the Jin rulers was purely for political purposes and has no factual basis, and Qing rulers knew that since the beginning, which was why Huang Taiji changed the name of his dynasty to Qing. So there is still yet evidence which the Qing is in any way related to Korea even if the Jin was.

The origin of Jin and Qing dynasty from Silla - Qing - China History Forum, Chinese History Forum

The genetic chart you posted look almost the same everywhere and every ethnics from Korean, Manchu, Han and ethnic minorities of China share similar Y-DNA so everyone pretty much relate with each other. Make no difference. The difference between Korean and Manchu Y-DNA are almost the same as the difference between Manchu Y-DNA and other ethnic groups. Yes, it shows that Korean and Manchu are related but then again, it also shows that all Asians are related with each other, not just Manchu-Korean alone. Whatever Y-DNA Manchu and Korean have, other Asians also have it. It really doesn't prove much.

Cerberus said:
Language =/= genetics =/= ethnicity.

Agree.

Mandschure · Jul 21, 2012

Actually that chart shows that Y-DNA haplogroup O2b (M176) is found in Northeast Asia and a small percentage among Xibes (who are descendants of Jurchens). It is also found among Manchus, Hezhe, Koreans and Japanese. O2b is more of a northern continental Y-DNA haplogroup whereas O2b1 is found more in the southern half of the Korean peninsula and Japan.

O2b is not found among ethnic groups in southern China.

Zoopiter · Jul 21, 2012

Mandschure said:
Actually that chart shows that Y-DNA haplogroup O2b (M176) is found in Northeast Asia and a small percentage among Xibes (who are descendants of Jurchens). It is also found among Manchus, Hezhe, Koreans and Japanese. O2b is more of a northern continental Y-DNA haplogroup whereas O2b1 is found more in the southern half of the Korean peninsula and Japan.

O2b is not found among ethnic groups in southern China.

I know that Manchu are northeast asian just like Korean but the chart also shows o2b in Manchu are very little that it's irrelevant and Manchu do not have o2b1.o2b is not even Manchu dominant Y-DNA and it doesn't even reach a quarter of Manchu total Y-DNA. That is why I said the Y-DNA hardly prove anything at all.

Cerberus · Jul 21, 2012

Mandschure said:
Actually that chart shows that Y-DNA haplogroup O2b (M176) is found in Northeast Asia and a small percentage among Xibes (who are descendants of Jurchens). It is also found among Manchus, Hezhe, Koreans and Japanese. O2b is more of a northern continental Y-DNA haplogroup whereas O2b1 is found more in the southern half of the Korean peninsula and Japan.

O2b is not found among ethnic groups in southern China.

O2b is found among several SEA groups. It is an ancient haplotype, and is not the primary component of any ethnic / national group.

O3 is found in greater quantities in Koreans, Manchus, Northern Chinese, Southern Chinese, and Tibeto-Burmans. Does that say these groups are all related in the same way? By your criteria, it does, but it is hardly a useful statement to make.

The Jurchens of the 11th century emerged in central and southern Manchuria, while the wild Jurchens of the 16th century hailed from further north - from the regions of modern Jilin and Heilongjiang. They are not from northeastern Korea, but were in interaction with people there.

The Jianzhou Jurchens, for example, are able to trace their southward migration to the borders of Korea from the north, and subsequently to the Liaoning area afterward.

With the political expansion of these groups, they absorbed other peoples around them. Ex Koreans were among the groups absorbed. The Manchus had / created a rather eclectic view of their background - saying that they are the descendants of all the famed political entities of Manchuria, which they are able to do because they absorbed peoples from all these entities.

Mandschure · Jul 21, 2012

Cerberus said:
O2b is found among several SEA groups. It is an ancient haplotype, and is not the primary component of any ethnic / national group.

O3 is found in greater quantities in Koreans, Manchus, Northern Chinese, Southern Chinese, and Tibeto-Burmans. Does that say these groups are all related in the same way? By your criteria, it does, but it is hardly a useful statement to make.

The Jurchens of the 11th century emerged in central and southern Manchuria, while the wild Jurchens of the 16th century hailed from further north - from the regions of modern Jilin and Heilongjiang. They are not from northeastern Korea, but were in interaction with people there.

The Jianzhou Jurchens, for example, are able to trace their southward migration to the borders of Korea from the north, and subsequently to the Liaoning area afterward.

With the political expansion of these groups, they absorbed other peoples around them. Ex Koreans were among the groups absorbed. The Manchus had / created a rather eclectic view of their background - saying that they are the descendants of all the famed political entities of Manchuria, which they are able to do because they absorbed peoples from all these entities.

The highest diversity and frequencies of Y-DNA haplogroup O2b occur in Northeast Asia, thus O2b is a marker which originated in Northeast Asia. High diversity= likely place of origin.

DeliciousTomatoesYay · Jul 22, 2012

The book Guns, Germs, and Steel can give you a little bit about the East Asian genetics, but it's mostly about how society flowed.

1991sudarshan · Jul 22, 2012

Any books that extensively deals with the East Asian genetics?

fangqingming · Jul 22, 2012

Mandschure said:
The highest diversity and frequencies of Y-DNA haplogroup O2b occur in Northeast Asia, thus O2b is a marker which originated in Northeast Asia. High diversity= likely place of origin.

O2b = korean?
(i know nothing about the genetics. sorry for asking so superficial questions.)

i means, there have some overlap, but how do we know "who is father, who is son?".

i had ever saw that korean nationalist claimed that jurchens history and manchu history belong to korean history and they are all korean. that let me to have the question.
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BTW, qing have nothing with jin, (from historical perspective ), i think zoopiter is right on the point. maybe i can give an example in real world.

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finally, thanks for the good thread, i got much knowledge.

fangqingming · Jul 22, 2012

1991sudarshan said:
They are separate ethnic people, but due to the Han people migration to the manchuria they are minority in their own land and to adopting han culture to get the maximum benefit. There are few villages in Manchuria were manchus speak manchu language and follow their custom and these villages could shed more light about the manchu culture. During the 1900's there were anti manchu movement in china and they were neglected that is the reason why the manchu are refraining to follow their own culture. The Korean - Manchu relationship is still a matter of dispute . Only thing we could do is to compare the genetic studies of two populations and come to a conclusion.

manchus lost their language, but the reason is not for han culture to get the maximum benefit.

in fact, manchus had started lost their language in qing dynasty that is manchu culture occupied the rule position. main reason for congenital deficiency.

Mandschure · Jul 23, 2012

Here's a Y-DNA haplogroup map:

fangqingming · Jul 23, 2012

sorry, the picture can't viewed. do you mind to upload it again?

Mandschure · Jul 24, 2012

fangqingming · Jul 24, 2012

thanks sooooooooo much.

Mandschure · Jul 25, 2012

Here are some photos of Ainu people from Japan:

Compare them with Australian Aboriginies:

They look quite similar.

This is because they have the same origin in South India (the place of origin of Australoids) before they moved to Sahul Southeast Asia and Japan.

1991sudarshan · Jul 25, 2012

Mandschure said:
Here are some photos of Ainu people from Japan:

They look quite similar.

This is because they have the same origin in South India (the place of origin of Australoids) before they moved to Sahul Southeast Asia and Japan.

These people look typical Indians

Mandschure · Jul 26, 2012

1991sudarshan said:
These people look typical Indians

Just shows how Japanese have mixed South Asian ancestry.

Zhang General · Jul 28, 2012

Northeast Chinese, Koreans and Japanese = Same race.

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East Asian genetic relationships

Zoopiter

Cerberus

Mandschure

Zoopiter

Mandschure

Zoopiter

Cerberus

Mandschure

DeliciousTomatoesYay

1991sudarshan

fangqingming

fangqingming

Mandschure

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Mandschure

fangqingming

Mandschure

1991sudarshan

Mandschure

Zhang General

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