The Cold War & The Kitchen Debates

Joined Jul 2020
23,778 Posts | 9,439+
Culver City , Ca
the problem of Russian economy wasn't a lack of educated people but the lack of incentives for new development. The directives for computerisation coming from the top were ignored by middle management which was comfortable with things as they were. If you don't have competition why bother? That's why Soviets were on par with US in weapons and space where competition between companies virtually didn't exist.
Actually the Soviet's at least in aircraft production going at least as far back as WWII had competing aircraft bureaus . We're Soviet era weapons as good as those of non Soviet militaries during the Cold War? Yes and no that would be an interesting thread. As far as space travel I am not an expert by any means but the US had manned flights to the moon not the Soviet's.
My main point was the Soviet's had an educational system that produced well educated people in math and science but Israeli and South Korean companies were the beneficiaries not Russian companies that if they kept the educated people in Russia post Soviet collapse could of revived the economy of the Russian Federation.
Leftyhunter
 
Joined Dec 2013
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US
Actually the Soviet's at least in aircraft production going at least as far back as WWII had competing aircraft bureaus . We're Soviet era weapons as good as those of non Soviet militaries during the Cold War? Yes and no that would be an interesting thread. As far as space travel I am not an expert by any means but the US had manned flights to the moon not the Soviet's.
My main point was the Soviet's had an educational system that produced well educated people in math and science but Israeli and South Korean companies were the beneficiaries not Russian companies that if they kept the educated people in Russia post Soviet collapse could of revived the economy of the Russian Federation.
Leftyhunter
my point was that without changing underlying principles by introducing free competition nothing could change sad state of Soviet society. That especially became clear in computer industry when Soviet companies were reduced to making bad knockoff of US computers
 
Joined Jul 2011
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Yeh, I computerization played a big role in Russia and China getting away from Socialism. They could be not so concerned about consumer goods, but it was difficult to compete militarily when they were so far behind with computers and electronics.

Khrushev's aggresive style was definitely Ukranian. There were other parts of the Soviet Union, which were northern European or Asian, and people would take a more polite style on the surface.

Nixon ran rings around Khrushev like a debater and lawyer. Like getting Khrushev to tacitly admit he controlled exactly what appeared on Soviet TV. Nixon was shrewd, but had no personality. He was introverted for a US politician. He was more typical of a behind the scenes political operative than an elected official. That was part of what happened with the debate with Kennedy. Nixon was a great debater, but Kennedy had more style and appeal. Nixon came off looking like the sleaze he was.

Nixon telling the story of getting up at 4 AM to buy vegetables was typical of him. He would tell that story campaigning in a relatively poor neighborhood or whatever. He would claim to be whatever ethnicity or from whatever location he was campaigning. He told that story in the Soviet Union to show his proletarian background.

Nixon apparently answered a newspaper advertisement to run against a Democratic incumbent who was going the become Chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee. He ran an attack campaign for Senate also. He was likely being used by people and there are parallels to Khrushev with the purges.
 
Joined Dec 2013
5,148 Posts | 2,763+
US
Yeh, I computerization played a big role in Russia and China getting away from Socialism. They could be not so concerned about consumer goods, but it was difficult to compete militarily when they were so far behind with computers and electronics.

Khrushev's aggresive style was definitely Ukranian. There were other parts of the Soviet Union, which were northern European or Asian, and people would take a more polite style on the surface.

Nixon ran rings around Khrushev like a debater and lawyer. Like getting Khrushev to tacitly admit he controlled exactly what appeared on Soviet TV. Nixon was shrewd, but had no personality. He was introverted for a US politician. He was more typical of a behind the scenes political operative than an elected official. That was part of what happened with the debate with Kennedy. Nixon was a great debater, but Kennedy had more style and appeal. Nixon came off looking like the sleaze he was.

Nixon telling the story of getting up at 4 AM to buy vegetables was typical of him. He would tell that story campaigning in a relatively poor neighborhood or whatever. He would claim to be whatever ethnicity or from whatever location he was campaigning. He told that story in the Soviet Union to show his proletarian background.

Nixon apparently answered a newspaper advertisement to run against a Democratic incumbent who was going the become Chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee. He ran an attack campaign for Senate also. He was likely being used by people and there are parallels to Khrushev with the purges.
Not just computers. By 1980th when price of oil collapsed meat became a luxury, sopa and sugar were rationed.
 
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Joined Jul 2020
23,778 Posts | 9,439+
Culver City , Ca
Yeh, I computerization played a big role in Russia and China getting away from Socialism. They could be not so concerned about consumer goods, but it was difficult to compete militarily when they were so far behind with computers and electronics.

Khrushev's aggresive style was definitely Ukranian. There were other parts of the Soviet Union, which were northern European or Asian, and people would take a more polite style on the surface.

Nixon ran rings around Khrushev like a debater and lawyer. Like getting Khrushev to tacitly admit he controlled exactly what appeared on Soviet TV. Nixon was shrewd, but had no personality. He was introverted for a US politician. He was more typical of a behind the scenes political operative than an elected official. That was part of what happened with the debate with Kennedy. Nixon was a great debater, but Kennedy had more style and appeal. Nixon came off looking like the sleaze he was.

Nixon telling the story of getting up at 4 AM to buy vegetables was typical of him. He would tell that story campaigning in a relatively poor neighborhood or whatever. He would claim to be whatever ethnicity or from whatever location he was campaigning. He told that story in the Soviet Union to show his proletarian background.

Nixon apparently answered a newspaper advertisement to run against a Democratic incumbent who was going the become Chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee. He ran an attack campaign for Senate also. He was likely being used by people and there are parallels to Khrushev with the purges.
Actually Nixon was telling the truth about getting up at 4am. Nixon's father was a retired railway conductor who lived on a modest pension and owned a small grocery store in Whittier, California. Nixon was brought up in a kit home that his father bought from Sears or Montgomery Wards which included everything one needs to build a home you just have to put it together. Whittier is something less then twenty miles from the wholesale district in downtown Los Angeles but back then there was no freeway in the late 1930s from Whittier to LA so not much traffic but a lot of lights.
Leftyhunter
 
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Joined Apr 2019
169 Posts | 25+
Guangzhou, China
I do not see why Khrushev would be so upset with Nixon. Khrushev made a fool of himself going on and on about how superior the Soviet Union was at a US cultural exhibition. Nixon just made digs about Khrushev dominating the conversation and whether this would be shown in its entirety in the Soviet Union as in the US.

Stalin had all the old Bolsheviks and like 90% of the top leadership at the time of the purges executed. Most of the top leadership at the time of Stalin's death were heavily involved in the purges, such as Khrushev and Beria. I have lot of respect for how Khrushev handled things as the ruler though.

I agree there are parallels to Nixon's involvement in shady things in the US.
Another confusing bit of history is noted by JFK after he returned from a 10 day summit (I think), where he had long discussions with Khrushev. After the summit JFK complained that he didn't prepare well for the debate of world views with Khrushev and he felt he had lost this big showdown. If it were me, I would have just repeated over and over that Americans have their financial life, careers, homes and on and on. While people in Russia were waiting in long lines to enter grocery stores that had no food by customer that had no money. How did JFK lose that argument?
 
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Joined Dec 2013
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Another confusing bit of history is noted by JFK after he returned from a 10 day summit (I think), where he had long discussions with Khrushev. After the summit JFK complained that he didn't prepare well for the debate of world views with Khrushev and he felt he had lost this big showdown. If it were me, I would have just repeated over and over that Americans have their financial life, careers, homes and on and on. While people in Russia were waiting in long lines to enter grocery stores that had no food by customer that had no money. How did JFK lose that argument?
Khrushchev had an answer: "In 5 years we will be ahead of the US". It didn't happen but it was a good answer: neither of them was there in 5 years.
 
Joined Apr 2019
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Guangzhou, China
The "blender" comment is not too cyncical.

In Russia most people lived in tenement housing. They didn't even have kitchens. Americans had dish-washers and dining rooms. Russians had nothing by comparison.
By all accounts Khrushchev was enormously impressed by the general prosperity of America when he visited, especially an Iowa farm.

I think you are taking too cynical a view of human nature. The "blender" comment I find kind of strange - this wasn't a speech at the UN, after all.

Soviet Premier Nikita Khrushchev Visits Farms, Research Center in Iowa, 1959 | IDCA (iowaculture.gov)

Khrushchev's Visit to Iowa | Cold War in the Heartland (ku.edu)


ussia
 
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Joined Jan 2017
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Sydney
Khrushchev launched a massive program of housing , it was badly needed and was with improvements in the consumer goods the bedrock of his popularity
the high rise apartments block so common in the Soviet union suburbs were a testimony of this .
many smirk at them but it was a massive improvement on the Stalinist misery
 
Joined Apr 2019
169 Posts | 25+
Guangzhou, China
By all accounts Khrushchev was enormously impressed by the general prosperity of America when he visited, especially an Iowa farm.

I think you are taking too cynical a view of human nature. The "blender" comment I find kind of strange - this wasn't a speech at the UN, after all.

Soviet Premier Nikita Khrushchev Visits Farms, Research Center in Iowa, 1959 | IDCA (iowaculture.gov)

Khrushchev's Visit to Iowa | Cold War in the Heartland (ku.edu)


I don't know but wasn't that the whole point of the debate? How can anyone in Russiamake the argument that Russia was "ahead of the US" in the late 1960s?
 
Joined Dec 2013
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Khrushchev launched a massive program of housing , it was badly needed and was with improvements in the consumer goods the bedrock of his popularity
the high rise apartments block so common in the Soviet union suburbs were a testimony of this .
many smirk at them but it was a massive improvement on the Stalinist misery
True. But at the same time, Khrushchev gutted peasants' supplemental income by requisitioning cows and cutting lend parcels allotted to them. In turn, it created food shortages at the farmer markets in the cities. The contributing factor was giving peasants some freedom of movement depopulating the countryside, which still required a lot of labor due to ineffectiveness.
 
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Joined Apr 2019
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True. But at the same time, Khrushchev gutted peasants' supplemental income by requisitioning cows and cutting lend parcels allotted to them. In turn, it created food shortages at the farmer markets in the cities. The contributing factor was giving peasants some freedom of movement depopulating the countryside, which still required a lot of labor due to ineffectiveness.
Right, that;s my point. Ineffectiveness. That's why the blender comment is so appropriate. Nobody in Russia had appliances in their home, they were broke!
 
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Joined Apr 2019
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Yes, in Moscow. But not throught the countryside. Even in 2024 most Russian in what history books call "The Steppe" they are drinking vodka and eating potatos and don't yet enjoy indoor plumming.
 
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Joined Apr 2019
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Guangzhou, China
True. But at the same time, Khrushchev gutted peasants' supplemental income by requisitioning cows and cutting lend parcels allotted to them. In turn, it created food shortages at the farmer markets in the cities. The contributing factor was giving peasants some freedom of movement depopulating the countryside, which still required a lot of labor due to ineffectiveness.
Correct, Khrushchev brought the Russians out of tennement housing and into western style apartments we enjoy today. But this is not the same thing as creating a middle class and consumer spending. I don't know where supplemental income would have come from, unless you are refering to savings.
 
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Joined Mar 2014
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Beneath a cold sun, a grey sun, a Heretic sun...
I don't know but wasn't that the whole point of the debate? How can anyone in Russiamake the argument that Russia was "ahead of the US" in the late 1960s?
You will enjoy this (if it's available in your country). "Khrushchev's American Tour: A Surreal Cold War Tale." It touches on many of the things you ask about. One of the biggest diplomatic failures on that tour was forbidding him from visiting Disneyland of all places. It was like handing him a machine gun to shoot holes in the alleged American "freedom".

 
Joined Dec 2013
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Correct, Khrushchev brought the Russians out of tennement housing and into western style apartments we enjoy today. But this is not the same thing as creating a middle class and consumer spending. I don't know where supplemental income would have come from, unless you are refering to savings.
Peasants in the USSR received "work-day" coupons instead of cash for working on collective farms. Those coupons were almost worthless so they relied on the supplemental income from small plots of land allotted to them and domestic animals. That's what I was referring to.
 
Joined Apr 2019
169 Posts | 25+
Guangzhou, China
You will enjoy this (if it's available in your country). "Khrushchev's American Tour: A Surreal Cold War Tale." It touches on many of the things you ask about. One of the biggest diplomatic failures on that tour was forbidding him from visiting Disneyland of all places. It was like handing him a machine gun to shoot holes in the alleged American "freedom".


I just watched this video. I didn't understand the narrator's speculative point that Khrushchev loved America.
 
Joined Sep 2012
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Bulgaria
I just watched this video. I didn't understand the narrator's speculative point that Khrushchev loved America.
The first visit of the Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev to the United States took place in the last two weeks of September 1959, about two months after the visit of then Vice President of the United States Richard Nixon to the USSR. On a way back straight from the USA, bringing to USSR his corn obsession, he visited Vladivostok, the capital of Primorye, so a rally was held at the city' stadium. There was an unimaginable number of people, it seemed like the whole city had gathered, military personnel, workers from various enterprises, visiting vacationers etc. Khrushchev told the citizens about the unacceptable, depraved, decaying morals of the West, though for some reason he spoke highly about San Francisco. He did compared the coast of Vladivostok with this American city, he actually 'surveyed' the American coast from a boat and put forward the slogan to make the capital of Primorski Krai, a better city than San Francisco.
 
Joined Mar 2014
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Beneath a cold sun, a grey sun, a Heretic sun...
I just watched this video. I didn't understand the narrator's speculative point that Khrushchev loved America.
I don't recall him saying that, but in any event I watch those things for the details, not for the presenter's interpretation.
 
Joined Apr 2019
169 Posts | 25+
Guangzhou, China
I don't recall him saying that, but in any event I watch those things for the details, not for the presenter's interpretation.
He does say it! The presenter or narrator's words are part of this story. I believe Khrushchev would have been impressed with the infrastructure he observed in US cities. But his ego was so wrapped up with hating the United States, he would never admit as much to anyone.
 

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